AP/DDN CHL records roundtable: Another Perspective

By Brian Horton
OFCC TeamLeader & CCW-Talk Moderator

I think that the DDN round table at Sinclair College went very well. Like Larry Moore I was pleasantly surprised that this
really was a fair discussion.

I thought Dr. Richard D. Stock, director of the University of Dayton’s Business Research Group, did a superb job of moderating by being fair and balanced with both sides and did a good
job of moving the discussion along and making sure every one on the panel was able to participate. I as well believe that the DDN really does want to know
what we think on the issue. I also believe that while Jeff Bruce is Editor of the DDN they won’t be publishing CHL lists.

Most people that were there were for keeping the records private. A few people said they should be open to the public but
make it so the media is not allowed to publish lists and that way a citizen has to go down to the sheriff’s office and make a request. Over all I think that there
were 3 panelists that did not really know much about
the issue or have strong opinions on CCW before the
evening started. By the end of the evening two of the
three thought the records should be closed and the
third seemed to be OK with CCW but thought that
basically all government records should be open.

Chief Julian Davis or the Dayton Police Department was
a pleasant surprise. Typically police chiefs of large
cities are anti CCW or hesitant to approve CCW. Chief
Davis stated several times that CHL holders are the
good guys and they aren’t worried about them at all.
He and Major Bush from Montgomery County Sheriff's
Dept. both supported CCW and closing the records.

Click on the "Read More..." link below for more.

I was surprised that Patti Schwarztrauber, executive
director of Artemis Center, (a place that helps women
who have be the victims of domestic violence) was for
open records and was against CCW in general. She said
that the records should be open and published to that
DV victims can check to see if the person who was
stalking them or abused them had a CHL. She also said
that the CCW law allows people with misdemeanor DV
convictions or charges to get a CHL. Larry tried to
explain to her that anyone with a recent assault or
violence misdemeanor conviction or pending charges, or
who is subject to a protective order can not get or
have a CCW. Incredibly, she refused to believe him.
(Apparently she knows everything there is to know
about the CCW law and Larry is an idiot!) She could
not see that publishing open records would expose and
jeopardize the safety of any rape or DV victim who had
a CHL. She said her group never advises a battered
woman to get a gun for protection since the gun is
“more likely to be used against her”. Apparently if
you are a DV victim who does not come to Artemis
Center for help and you choose to arm yourself
instead, you are not worth helping or protecting.

Julie Weindel, News Director WHIO-TV, Channel 7 and
DDN editor Jeff Bruce both were for opening the CHL
records to the public, saying that they felt the media
being the only ones with access to the list felt
uneasy about that set up. They both said that the list
should at least remain available to them as it helps
them runs stories about CHL holders since they can
find people to contact and it helps them do research
and answer questions that readers have about what kind
of people the CHLer’s are. (Average age, typical job,
etc) Jeff Bruce said that he would like to see more
information available, as in home addresses so that
the media could do more statistical research and see
things like where do most CHLer’s live ect. I was able
to point out to him during the audience questions and
comments period that while the DDN has not published
any lists yet several other papers in Ohio have done
so. I then referenced statements about how
criminals are too dumb to use such a list to find gun
robbery victims. I then pointed out that I know of 3
separate robberies that occurred in the last six
months in the SW Ohio area where the person robbed had
placed a classified add in the paper to sell something
and the respondent came by to look at it but instead
robbed them. I also should have added that in the last
year two women in Ohio have been raped using this
method. Weindel and Bruce seemed to bristle when Larry
brought up instances of obvious and extreme bias
against guns in the media. I think we got through to
them that we see the opening and ending of their
Sunday article and the inclusion of Toby Hoover being
a crime victim while omitting that about Chad’s father
in our opinion slanted it against CCW and keeping
records private. My personal impression was that Julie
Weindel came across as being against CCW and Jeff Bruce was maybe OK
with it as long as there were restrictions about where
we can carry and training requirements. He could be a
more may-issue kind of guy.

Kristin McAllister, reporter for the DDN, said that
she is a hobby target shooter and she has done some
articles on CCW training. It seemed that she was OK
with the CCW law. She also seemed to be for open
records to the media and public.

Gary Daniels from ACLU played it about how I expected
them to. He never gave a position concerning CCW in
general. He flatly stated that since the ACLU was both
a big supporter of privacy rights and a big supported
of government transparency and open records that the
ACLU was a conscious fence straddler on this issue.

All of the pro-gun folks (Bill Jarrett, Jeff Pedro,
Bob Langham, Bob Mullins, Gary Robbins, and of course
Larry Moore) did a great job representing our side of
the issue. Each of them spoke very well and made
excellent points. State Rep. Tom Brinkman also
provided some good commentary on how the CCW bill
became a law. I think that Larry did a stupendous job
representing the OFCC. He was very well prepared and
due to time constraints I doubt he hit on 20% of what
he was prepared to talk about.

There were two people who spoke that were of very much
against CCW and quite irrational about in my opinion.
Terry Clark was on the panel and said that she wants
the lists published and more info made available. She
said that she should have the right to know who
carried guns so that she can stay away from them and
keep them away from her children. Joe Hauser was an
audience member who participated and seeming the
perfect example of the “Raging Against Guns” type of
fear of self projectionist. His statement, "I feel I
have every right to know you can instantaneously shoot
me dead." Was quoted in the AP story and he also made
statement that he would like to know if anyone he is
friends with has a CHL so he can avoid being around
that person because he doesn’t want to chance making
that person mad then having that person kill him. Both
these people were deaf to the statements by the law
enforcement representatives who were there that CHL
holders are not criminals and are non violent.

Sitting in the audience I got to hear and see a few
people’s reactions to the discussion. The fellow
sitting next to me appeared to be with the DDN. You
could easy tell he was very much against CCW and was
of the irrational fear, people with guns will kill me
type. I tried giving him a few statistics from the
state AG’s involving the crime rate of CCW holders in
Florida and Texas versus the law enforcement community
and the general populace. He didn’t believe anything I
told him.

I was glad I was able to bring up Toby Hoover’s
statement that CHL list should be published and that
business owners and HR people should check those lists before making employment decisions. Tom Brinkman touched
on it as well. It seems we made an impression on the
AP writer in that respect since it was mentioned in
the AP article.

All in all it went very well. I had a great time
meeting the pro gun guys and I got to meet Larry in
the person for I think the first time. Jana Collier
was very gracious and did come across as very
appreciative of our attendance and participation. I
would could the round table discussion as a victory
for the OFCC and CCW in Ohio. My score would be 10-6-1
among the panelists in our favor on this CHL open
records discussion.

I am greatly interested to see what the DDN will write
about this forum. I think the one thing that everyone
there could agree on was that Taft's media only access
to the records idea was a bad one. Of course some
people want them public and some people want them
private.